Hanniah welcome,

For us a small org in the business and social enterprise is something of a double-edged sword. On one hand , the advocacy for business to be more "people-centered" in its role within the community, is something we can reasonably claim to have pioneered with my colleague and founder's white paper on the subject delivered to US government. On the other, as a small business providing software and services to corporations for our core funding, ours are much the same problems as any small company with a dominant supplier.

What we do at the sharp end is advocacy and activism. Our founder working overseas, raises awareness of social issues and delivers strategy papers to government. Business feature large in such proposals. What he's pioneered is the leverage of development aid to be used as seed capital for new business creation, taking impoverished people into sustainable livelyhoods.

For example, in 1999 he had the opportunity to leverage a microcredit`bank in Siberia which applied this model to achieve full cost recovery. Now we are targeting the government of Ukraine with a microeconomic Marshall Plan while keeping up the pressure on the case of children abandoned into institutional care.

This one might think would build kudos for the revenue creating business. The reality is far from it. We have many who simply don't pay their bills on time, if at all. It's a business which built up a reputation for good service over 20 years, now going downhill since migrating to a social business. For me, with more than 30 years in this industry as a developer, there is no work to be found at all in over a year.

In truth, the corporations we serve have no interest in our social mission if they are aware of it, at all.

For our kind of social business, other than simply paying suppliers on time, what they could do is obvious - deploy our social model, free and opensource, in their own projects or fund one of ours to replicate the social outcome with full cost recovery.

Jeff

Dear Jeff, Thank you for starting the discussion off and for your thoughtful input. It is a real shame that after 20 years of service provision a successful business’s reputation can be compromised by a move to social business. I think it would be very helpful to the discussion if you provided some more details of your social model and how it can be deployed in large businesses.

Certainly Hanniah, Our model is that of a business investing its profit into social and community purpose which was delivered to the US President's re-election committee in 1996. It advocated abandonment of the nonprofit model completely in favour of a social purpose model which adopted a more inclusive form of capitalism, where compassion would replace greed retaining the same bottom line while coexisting with conventional business in the free market system of economics.

It is described on our website in synopsis. Central to the model was the role of information technology, recognising that at the beginning of the Information Age, information poverty would be the inheritance of those disenfranchised from the Industrial Age and that those whose existence was threatened by poverty could be expected to respond, by whatever means available including terrorism.

http://www.p-ced.com/History/tabid/57/Default.aspx

The approach before and since I joined was to leverage development funding to be deployed in microeconomic development. In 1999 our founder took the model to Russia when top down development had floundered, with a strategy plan to try it another way, bottom up. His investment, around $4000 was to yield a consultancy fee in return and the microcredit bank, central to the strategy was to result in 10,000 new businesses, with women outnumbering men at a ratio of 4:1 as borrowers. Full cost recovery of the $8m invested was achieved over a 5 year project, in contrast with the losses of the Defense Enterprise Fund which preceded it.

I introduced the founder and his model in the UK in 2004, prior to the existence of community interest companies, with what seemed to be a not invented here response. I wrote to the chair of the social enterprise coalition at her House of Lords address and recieved no reply, I offered to present the microcredit bank success story to our APPG on microfinance in the year of microfinance 2004 and was turned down flat. We put together a proposal for a community broadband service and got refused funding from ICOF because we were not a full I&P registered cooperative and were refused by all other social funders because we weren't a registered charity. Our founder on a 3 month leave to enter the UK was subsequently refused entry, as a "suspected economic migrant" and we had to find a way of operating with a director stuck overseas. The only place affordable for us to keep him was back in the former Soviet Union.

There was unfinished business in Ukraine. Having moved on from Russia, a proposal had been delivered to invest in the repatriated Islamic Tatar population in Crimea. Someone in local government wanted changes in their favour which were unacceptable and the project was blocked by my colleague rather than accept anything looking remotely like graft. He was able to block it as a copyright business proposal. At the time there was $40m on the table.

Now in Ukraine, we have resubmitted the Crimea proposal in the light of changed attitudes to corruption and for the past year, have a national scale proposal delivered to government, it proposes joint social investment between Ukraine and the US to provide homes for all institutionalised children, deploy a profit generating and affordable rural broadband infrastructure, open a national microcredit bank and a new faculty for social enterprise. So, a mix of projects some more others less than full cost recovery, to yeild nil overall cost in the project duration. At the same time we campaign, raising awareness of child poverty and the particular case of homes for the disabled, which we have described in our journalism as "Death Camps for Children"

I then adopted an existing software business to provide core funding for this project, such that it corresponded to the original paradigm of a P-CED business and met our DTI definitions of a social enterprise for a business returning more than 50% of profit to social purpose.

So, we can demonstrate that for a little effort, in all an investment of a few thousand dollars by one small business could yield such things as a microcredit bank, a community housing project or even go as far as a national scale Marshall Plan against poverty. Large businesses could engage us for our service offerings such that we could continue this work, they could also make similar investments themselves for social outcomes which cost them nothing.

Dear Jeff, thank you for putting in so much time in order to give a more detialed look at your model. I have to say it is very innovative but unfortunatly simply has been marred by circumstance. Do you think that if you had a better platform from which to launch it and raise it’s profile or perhaps get someone/or corporation with a high profile to champion it there might be a chance for it to begin to be applied more?

Dear Hanniah, In some ways it may have served its purpose already, raising awareness of the profit for purpose paradigm. On the other hand, in the wider context as a methodology for international development it may not be as widely understood, with perhaps one notable exception.

http://www.csis.org/smartpower/

In many ways the world is moving in the right direction. Yunus has come out in favour of social business reiterating the points about making capitalism more inclusive and the risk of terrorism in neglected communities. Bill Gates, an unlikely advocate only a few years ago is beginning to turn around.

What we have left to do, is see through the current project and create enough revenue to support it. It would be big enough to occupy the remainder of our working lives, though the opportunity to take it elsewhere, the developing world, is appealing. At least there might be someone to pick up the baton and run with it.

Jeff

Hi Hanniah, Good evening from Scotland.Before I say much more I just would like to thank Charles(Hipbone)Cameron for introducing me toSocial Edge last year; and I want to wish him and all his the very best in this New Year. My work as a Social Entrepreneur in the business sense began shortly after I learned of the devastation caused by hurricane Ivan to the island of Grenada W.I on 07/09/2004 .see http://www.grenadarelief.co.uk Since tnen, I have recently06/02/2008 become a Scottish Private Limited Company No33748 ,Registrar of Companies ,Companies House Edinburgh.Iam awaiting full accreditation from OSCR (the Office of the Scottish Charities Regulator)to become a charitable company limited by guarrantee inorder to effect my objectives which i will share with you in subsequent discussion/dialogue Where do now I go from here? The questions you pose are relevant to my situation.I believe i have demonstrated that i possees the attributes. capacity and achievemnts to call myself a Social entrepreneur,however if Iam going to sustain what has so far been a self-funded venture then I will need to become an entrepreneurial manager/stroke businessman in order to sustain and extend the reach of my social mission. I shall pause here for the time being and return.I have been reading and rereading a short paper by Professor J.Gregory Dees.'The Meaning of "Social Entrepreneurship" which I have found thought provoking and helpful in clarifying what lies in terms of the leverage I require that will release the full potential of my initiative.Best wishes. Aye Dseeavid

Please correct my spelling and grammar.Many thanks. Aye David

Hi David, Good morning from London and thanks so much for taking the time to take part in the discussion. From what you write you are indeed the exact profile of person whose input due to experience would be invaluable to discovering challenges and possible solutions to social entrepreneur/corporate engagement. One challenge that I think you have already identified through your preliminary comments is that lack of information available to potential social entrepreneurs on future steps for sustainability or indeed ‘where to go from here’. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the dilemma and on Professor Dees’s paper.

Hi Hanniah

An interesting set of challenges and questions.

My view - from a background in the City (I used be a Director of a futures exchange, for what that's worth) is that the problem lies in the legal and financial relationships ("enterprise model") that we take for granted, and that we have to look to a ne weneterprise model for a solution.

That is why I have been working in Scotland (with some Norwegian government funding) on new partnership-based tools - the "Hanseatic Microfinance Initiative" - aimed at enabling "Public"; "Private" and "Third" Sectors to work together to better effect.

But to address your questions

• What do social entrepreneurs need from big businesses in order to grow rapidly and sustainably?

In two words "Money's Worth" in resources generally, and in particular the "Intellectual Capital" available in big corporations. This is not just the people - it may also be new ideas and concepts requiring development, but not necessarily ready (or considered not viable) for a "commercial" environment.

A case in point is a Norwegian company I know which has radical new heat exchanger technology with application both for marine engines and desalination. The shareholders clearly direct investment "where the money is" leaving potentially hugely beneficial technology "on the shelf".

We believe that our partnership structure (which has cross border application) can bring to bear "socially responsible" investment in a new and "win/win" way on such intellectual property.

We are looking for "venture philanthropists" right now.

• Can examples like Grameen Bank and the mainstreaming of micro-finance in major banks help inform replicable projects in other sectors?

I believe that the fact that "micro-finance" has gone "mainstream" is not a sign of success but failure. Major banks are not altruists, regrettably, and the returns they perceive will come at the expense of the poor.

I have never seen why it is that the route out of poverty need involve putting the poor into debt.

We have developed two new partnership-based micro-finance tools which together comprise our "Initiative":

(a) the "Guarantee Society" - which is the mutual guarantee of "bilateral "trade" credit - this is "interest-free", but not "cost-free", since a provision is made into a "Pool" to cover operating costs and defaults;

(b) the "Capital Partnership" - a mechanism for micro-investment (irrespective of the legal form of the micro-enterprise) through sharing "n'ths" of production or revenues in "co-owned" assets.

Interestingly, both techniques are Islamically sound at a fundamental level.

• How can big businesses reach out to front-line social entrepreneurs who are not included in the formal debate (conferences and workshops) on partnering but whose practical experiences could be of value to corporations?

Probably by working with a "service provider" partner whose role it will be to deliver working partnerships, and who are paid mainly by the outcome, rather than the hour or day.

Best Regards

Chris Cook

Dear Chris, Thank you for introducing some very interesting concepts to the discussion. ‘Intellectual capital’ is rarely mentioned within the standard resources (money, personnel, products etc) that large companies can aid social entrepreneurs with; nevertheless it could be a very potent resource for social entrepreneurs. However taking account of intellectual property rights including patents, trade marks, and copyrights etc do you feel that big businesses are forthcoming in sharing intellectual capital?

I do agree partly with you on the fact that the mainstreaming of micro-credit does not necessarily mean success because the needs of each region/community have to be met within context. However the misuse of the concept by some self-interested banks should not necessarily discredit the emancipating potential of micro-credit. Though on another level as a concept it has helped to ‘inform’ your microfinance tools if only by its deficiencies.

I am very interested to find out more about the tools and their application. Are you currently working on implementing these with partners? Also as a slightly off route question you mentioned that both the tools are Islamically sound at the fundamental level, was this due to potential application in specifically Islamic regions/communities?

Global FUTURE IP by and for the people own ideas For FUTURE Vs ..see.. www.futurevisionaries.com Kent G anderson Home -701-223-0639

David, I agree with you that Charles has been a valuable networker to connect people with Social Edge and each other.

I've posted a link to a blog article I wrote that focuses on the role corporations can take to support social entrepreneurs and non profit innovators. In the blog is a link to an article titled "Strategy & Society: The Link Between Competitive Advantage and Corporate Social Responsibility." Written by Michael E. Porter and Mark R. Kramer. http://tutormentor.blogspot.com/2007/12/many-to-one-not-one-to-many.html

If we can help corporations unleash the talent of their employees, and the leadership of their organizations, for strategic goals, which could be product related, or could relate to organizational goals, such as workforce development or diversity.

I use maps to point to areas of the Chicago region where poverty is concentrated, in an attempt to help corporations with multiple locations think of strategies that distribute support in all of the places where they do business, rather than one or two high profile places.

Are others using visual tools to help aid corporate thinking?

Dear Daniel, Thank you so much for the link, which is particularly informative in this context and for this discussion. The visual tools are a great example of how companies can strategically involve themselves in the communities in which they operate. As I mentioned in my initial introduction a well-managed partnership with a social entrepreneur can increase the ability of the company to assess the needs of and access to consumers at the base of the economic pyramid. In my view your program locator (http://www.tutormentorprogramlocator.net/programlocator/default.asp) for example does exactly that as ‘business partners can use these maps to determine where to offer talent, leadership, dollars and technology to help existing programs, provide constantly improving services, and to help create new programs where needed’. Though what would you say about interest from business leaders in the utilization of such visual tools?

I would be very interested in finding out if there are other people designing or using similar visual tools.

I'm in the process of updating all of my maps and will begin producing a new wave in early April. With these our goal is to do overlays that show businesses, churches, hospitals and universities operating in or near areas with high poverty and poor schools. Our aim is to help people who share the same geography to begin to connect with each other on mutually beneficial work. Our goal is also to teach businesses to use maps as an analysis tool. If you map the locations of your business, and overlay this with poverty, poor schools and tutor/mentor programs, you can begin to develop a strategy that supports non profits in all areas where you do business, not just a few random choices.

The biggest obstacle I have is that most business is already deeply involved in some form of social benefit work, which makes it harder for them to step back and think of this from a big-picture perspective asking "is what we're doing enough; or is there more we could be doing?"

So we need to keep reminding them of why it is important for them to get involved. I do that with articles I post at http://tutormentor.blogspot.com

I feel that many of the social entrepreneurs in the world would find greater support if they would build web based portals like the T/MC site, devoted to the work they and others like them are doing. That way instead of just one innovator knocking on doors and trying to get attention, many innovators focused on the same goal, but in different places, could be sharing the work of getting business attention.

It just takes one person to take this role.

There is something to be said for the need for collective action in order to get things done. For example on the businesses side it has been found a lot more fruitful for companies operating in areas with lax human rights or violations (if these are applicable to its direct business operations or primary contractors it can be seen as complicit) to engage with governments collectively rather than as a single company. This is because individual initiatives might be seen by the sovereign government as antagonistic and may affect the company’s corporate license to operate. It is an example from the other side of the spectrum but I think it highlights the importance to standing together when maintaining a dialogue with an entity operating on a much larger scale. Perhaps what is needed is a large scale ‘social entrepreneur forum’.

Dear Hanniah:

While many corporate sectors are directly or indirectly involved in building social infrastructure of a community namely education, health care, housing, economic development, culture, sports, civic measures, environment development and improvement of other human environments, the questions raised are? Are these corporate initiatives ensuring full participation of the poor, the marginalised and the disabled in the economic and developmental process? Are their rights and duties in a civil society enforced? Are their corporate partnership initiatives geared towards meeting the major social development issues namely I. Eradication of poverty II. Expansion of productive employment and reduction of unemployment and III. Fostering social integration? How do nonprofit business collaborations respond to these vital issues?

Corporate sectors have to work in alliance with nonprofits on a long-term basis in effectively delivering the community services such as 1.strengthening primary education especially in rural areas 2.primary health care initiatives 3.micro-enterprise lending programmes for the poor 4. Provision of drinking water 5. Environmental awareness and sustainable development programmes 6.promoting children’s rights 7.Preventive health education for adults on alcoholism and drug abuse, HIV/AIDS 8. Promoting peace and communal harmony in the community and 9.Building NGO capacity.

Dear Chris, thank you so much for your comment. I am a strong believer that community service provision gaps can be filled by the private/corporate sector in countries where state provision is lagging through responsible business practice. I feel this is due to the smaller scale/flexible characteristics of company CSR policies that can be responsive to the communities in which they operate. But in order to do this engagement/information exchange is needed with non-profits or social entrepreneurs to identify existing gaps in social provision. However as with everything in the world, intention is everything. If there is genuine interest within the company to gear the CSR policy towards community service and development then a partnership with a non-profit might be successful and long-term.

Big businesses (as Hanniah puts it) need to first have a change in mindset that 1) CSR can be a profitable, growth-oriented and sustainable strategy (and not to be relegated as an act of philanthropy or charity for businesses to build social capital), and 2) that the poor in developing and emerging markets are both potential consumers and partners, if only big businesses see them less as victims but more as resilient, value-conscious and innovative members of society.

Without the mindset change of big businesses, it will be an uphill challenge for social entrepreneurs to approach them for collaboration. We need to create greater awareness of social entrepreneurship via education and training and providing best-in-class (and replicable) examples of social innovation projects that were initiated and managed by private-sector enterprises (such as Unilever, SC Johnson & Co, and Danone to name a few), local entrepreneurs and civic and government officials. Because each group has a stake in the project, the parties involved will naturally put in a more conscientious effort to make the project a success. It's a total win-win-win scenario.

We need more than just the Grameen Bank or kiva.org examples to push forward the social entrepreneurship agenda as social entrepreneurship is so much more than just microfinancing. The bigger picture involves big businesses collaborating with the local community and social entrepreneurs, and together coming up with innovative solutions (be it financing, product development, marketing or distribution) to overcome local barriers so that the community as a whole will benefit with social, economic and environmental development.

How can big businesses reach out to front-line social entrepreneurs? Let's start with the UN agencies. Perhaps they can form a link and be the broker between private-sector enterprises and social entrepreneurs and the local communities.

Agree Sandra, on win-win scenarios. Here for example an extract from the paper that took 11 years to filter through, on the subject of changing the business mindset, and the far reaching implications of making it so.

"Substitute personal greed with compassion, and the balance sheets will still work out just fine. Profit/loss statements take on a whole new dimension and meaning. Greed and capitalism are not one and the same thing. "Social" capitalism, social enterprise, is perfectly doable. This is the most effective sustainable strategy available for alleviating widespread human suffering stemming from poverty and all that comes with it

up to and including terrorism."

Now, I have to say from personal experience of UN agencies, these are not the ideal advocacies. Due to graft demands, we blocked one of our own projects, something of a landmark in the willingness of US Govt to fund development in an Islamic community and behind us came UNDP attempting to replicate using our founders work with a budget 200 times the actual cost of proposal delivery.

Now of corporations, I can offer an example. The Guardian media group has begun it's own development project in Uganda. By coincidence, one part of this group is my customer as a social business. This newspaper, whose credentials for journalism and integrity are not in doubt, are totally unaware that they contribute to economic development work elsewhere by virtue of just being a customer.

Now, the editor asks. Tell us about what you're doing in international development and I do, pointing out that they are already contributing. Do you imagine I got any response?

Dear Sandra, You are absolutely right in that it is a win-win situation if the partnership is managed properly and for this ‘brokers’ can be an excellent resource. However do you feel that organisations operating on the sheer scale of the UN can in fact deliver on partnerships like the ones you envisage (local communities, local barriers) effectively and rapidly?

I am also completely in agreement with the point that there is a need for: ‘greater awareness of social entrepreneurship via education and training and providing best-in-class (and replicable) examples of social innovation projects that were initiated and managed by private-sector enterprises (such as Unilever, SC Johnson & Co, and Danone to name a few), local entrepreneurs and civic and government officials’

In addition to changing the ‘mind set’ of businesses, readily available access to such resources (case studies, examples of projects) would assist potential and exiting partnerships in identifying cases of best practice in their field and through replication, modification or indeed creation of new initiatives could lead to further social innovation.

The problem that however remains is how to make all this information accessible to all the parties that could benefit from it (big businesses, social entrepreneurs, civil society and governments) especially in face of the above-mentioned circumstance that social entrepreneurs in particular might be missing from the conventional formal information network including: Education and Training = Conferences, work shops, round tables, conventions etc (unless conventional formal education in universities begins to address these issues in business, management and economic development degrees). Best in-class examples = issue briefs, case studies etc.

Clearly an in addition to creating awareness about social entrepreneurship an innovative approach to this creation sorely is needed.

Nice forum. I find that generally big businesses do not reach out to front line social entrepreneurs. In my experience the life ofthe socia entrepreneur is extra tough in that it is up to us to go and chase around the corporate world at our own expense. The problem with much CSR is that it is conference centric, and in my view it is becoming one big academic baloon, where people have a very slim idea of what really happens on the field. Since I have set up Alchemy World www.alchemyworld.org I have found that interacting with corporates a frustrating experience in a way as it means enetring a theoretical realm. I would genuinely welcome CRS people that are interested in the trenches not just the academic papers published. Carlo

Dear Carlo, Thankyou for your personal response. I think that the problem you are facing are probably echoed the world over by social entrepreneurs, that of being able to identify big businesses with genuine interests in social enterprise and with whom a partnership will be a mutually beneficial one. One of the solutions (excuse me for tooting my own organisations horn) is to not go it alone but as Chris mentioned earlier ‘working with a "service provider" partner whose role it will be to deliver working partnerships’. The IBLF for example is one such organisation, which helps to form and maintain such partnerships. You can learn more about our involvement with social enterprise and entrepreneurs at http://www.iblf.org/activities/Business_Standards/Enterprise.jsp.

I completely agree with your thoughts on the over theorizing of the concept due to the conference culture which excludes a lot of voices from the ‘trenches’. I am very hopeful that this online forum will help in attending to this problem or help come up with new innovative solutions. Any takers??

Big businesses (as Hanniah puts it) need to first have a change in mindset that 1) CSR can be a profitable, growth-oriented and sustainable strategy (and not to be relegated as an act of philanthropy or charity for businesses to build social capital), and 2) that the poor in developing and emerging markets are both potential consumers and partners, if only big businesses see them less as victims but more as resilient, value-conscious and innovative members of society.

Without the mindset change of big businesses, it will be an uphill challenge for social entrepreneurs to approach them for collaboration. We need to create greater awareness of social entrepreneurship via education and training and providing best-in-class (and replicable) examples of social innovation projects that were initiated and managed by private-sector enterprises (such as Unilever, SC Johnson & Co, and Danone to name a few), local entrepreneurs and civic and government officials. Because each group has a stake in the project, the parties involved will naturally put in a more conscientious effort to make the project a success. It's a total win-win-win scenario.

We need more than just the Grameen Bank or kiva.org examples to push forward the social entrepreneurship agenda as social entrepreneurship is so much more than just microfinancing. The bigger picture involves big businesses collaborating with the local community and social entrepreneurs, and together coming up with innovative solutions (be it financing, product development, marketing or distribution) to overcome local barriers so that the community as a whole will benefit with social, economic and environmental development.

How can big businesses reach out to front-line social entrepreneurs? Let's start with the UN agencies. Perhaps they can form a link and be the broker between private-sector enterprises and social entrepreneurs and the local communities.

Dear Sandra, You are absolutely right in that it is a win-win situation if the partnership is managed properly and for this ‘brokers’ can be an excellent resource. However do you feel that organisations operating on the sheer scale of the UN can in fact deliver on partnerships like the ones you envisage (local communities, local barriers) effectively and rapidly?

I am also completely in agreement with the point that there is a need for: ‘greater awareness of social entrepreneurship via education and training and providing best-in-class (and replicable) examples of social innovation projects that were initiated and managed by private-sector enterprises (such as Unilever, SC Johnso